The Sandbar

#9 - Afro-Latinidad II

• Sandy Paulino • Season 1 • Episode 9

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Are you from the country you live in or the one one your family comes from? Are you your ethnicity or your nationality? How have you navigated having a culture at home that may differ from your social/professional life? Hop onto the sandbar w/ Jennylee Ramos and Jennifer Paulino in part two of Afro-Latinidad to get three perspectives on how we've navigated our intertwined worlds!

00:00 - Intro: Diving Back In

05:01 - What Does It Mean to "Speak Proper"?

10:01 - Code-Switching

15:01 - What Professionalism Looked Like

20:02 - Generational Work Ethic & Hereditary Habits

25:03 - Sometimes a Hug, Sometimes a Handshake

35:01 - Survival: By Bonds or By Blood?

40:01 - Standing On the Shoulders of Giants

54.41 - Final Throughts for the Culture

**Recorded in 2021**


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Sandy Paulino:

welcome back to part two of afro latinidad with jenny and jennifer. Uh, we took a short break because the episode ran longer than usual, so we decided to break it up into two separate episodes. But, um, yeah, let's get right into it.

Jennylee Ramos:

Yeah, like I'm not doing that like my. If I come home being like el casillero, my family's gonna be like la laca. You mean, like what are you talking about? So like I personally didn't do that, but for the opposite reason, because I was like I'm gonna get made fun of if I come home trying to act bougie.

Sandy Paulino:

Interesting. So I guess for me we kind of all have different perspectives on that so I would code switch for the relationship that I had with that person.

Sandy Paulino:

With my teachers I had a borderline teacher's pet type of student where I had a very good relationship with my teachers, but in a casual manner, literally just the fact that I could talk to my teacher as a regular person and that kind of gave me some leverage in the classroom. When I would go to speak to a like a random adult, it would be very like oh, you know how you doing my name is sandy like a job interview type thing you know, like so that they could see me in a not this is a little black kid that has attitude, type of way.

Sandy Paulino:

And then with my black friends there was kind of like this, this, uh, this stigma. I guess that you kind of had to be a little, you got, had to be a little hood, just so that you didn't get made fun of or so that the white kids didn't think that you were white and we all kind of there was this low-key. You know, it's just a weird it's just a weird atmosphere in general.

Sandy Paulino:

So, and then with my white friends, I was still myself and I didn't realize this until I got out of college, but I spoke to them in a very proper way because that's how they spoke at home. But then they would look to me as kind of the language relief sort of they would try to practice their slang on me, if that makes sense.

Jennylee Ramos:

These are microaggressions, yeah yeah, yeah exactly.

Jennifer Paulino:

I would just like to say, for those that are listening, that he put the word proper in air quotes because personally I think yes.

Jennylee Ramos:

I was going to touch on that.

Jennifer Paulino:

Yeah, there's a really big problem when we say proper yeah because it's not right or wrong. Exactly.

Sandy Paulino:

So my code switching would be more to the relationship and not necessarily to what I was trying to get out of the person it was more.

Jennylee Ramos:

I want them, like, sure, I want them to see me it was more your comfort level, but yeah, it's more like I want them to be comfortable talking to me and when I would in spanish.

Sandy Paulino:

This is when I kind of had that experience. In college. I got that vocabulary where I was able to switch from my campesino you know that's what I was used to, that's how I talked to my mom in a way. And when I got to college, the vocabulary I didn't necessarily I wasn't exposed to some high class, you know Latinos, like they were, you know, straight up from, you know humble beginnings type of dudes too, Some of them had a little bit more money but they weren't a high class to, for lack of a better word.

Sandy Paulino:

So when I got to Dominican Republic I was lucky enough to have some family members that were like from the city and city. Spanish in Dominican Republic is a lot more proper than Campesino Spanish, so I kind of practice, or so they think. Yeah, yeah. But I got to practice with them and I was like oh, como tu esta, you know, estamos hablando de negocio, estamos hablando de cosas profesionales, blah blah blah.

Sandy Paulino:

And then I get to the campo, I'm like, hey, que lo? Que hermano? What's up, boy you know? And that way I was able to kind of practice code switching not only in English but in Spanish too, and I've kind of developed the versatile part of it. But at the same time I feel like I've sacrificed the you know, the regular voice that I'm kind of. I wouldn't say I'm losing, but it's turning into something else. And I don't know if that's a good or bad thing.

Jennifer Paulino:

So do you think and I guess this question is for both of you do you think that your vocabulary in one area or another has suffered because of code switching? Because, for example, for me, I I took spanish for business in college and when I took that class I learned a lot of words. But I also was very humbled by my teacher, because my teacher told me that I needed to practice my enunciation and the way that I said words, because Dominican spoke really poor Spanish yeah and then my mom, my aunt.

Jennifer Paulino:

Her mom told me once she told my mom that I was really pretty until I opened my mouth to speak in Spanish your aunt said that my aunt's mom your aunt's mom yeah, she said that I was really pretty until I opened my mouth to speak spanish.

Jennifer Paulino:

So I so my feelings about all of this, yeah. So like I was very humbled in my language because I knew a lot of words but because I couldn't pronounce them in the way that others wanted to hear them, that felt like that was their dominant, I guess, arena of language. I felt like I was inadequate, so I felt like I had to stick to the words that I could properly pronounce and not try to expand outside of that in English or in.

Jennifer Paulino:

Spanish and not try to expand outside of that in English or in Spanish, because, like, for example, the other day, I said a word and you were like oh, you have to say it like this, you're saying it wrong. I will never use that word again because I feel like I can't say it properly.

Jennylee Ramos:

You're like and that's the end of that, espresso, espresso. I keep saying espresso. You see, all of these things make me so upset, so much so that I forgot your original question, because all I can think about is the fact that, like I hate when people police not only blackness but also like our language. Like I think that and it kind of goes back to what you were mentioning about, like how do I explain what I'm trying to say like it, like our language and how we speak, isn't related to our intelligence.

Sandy Paulino:

Yeah.

Jennylee Ramos:

Like, and I think that's the issue Kind of even how you have to make the note that, like, when you say proper, you don't actually mean proper. It's just kind of how society views it, and I think that's the issue. Like, I feel that, if anything, it's impressive to be so versatile and to be able to code, switch and to be able to have the tools to perform in all of those spaces. I don't need to be 100%. I don't think any of us need to be 100% in each one of those avenues because it doesn't dictate our intelligence. Like, I know Dominicans who talk like que lo que, que lo que esta pasando, who are very well-read and well-versed and are just able to move and like flow in that space.

Sandy Paulino:

I feel like that's more useful too.

Jennylee Ramos:

I agree. I think that it's more beneficial and I can connect with more people because of that, not in spite of it. Yeah, and I think that's the issue that people will hear your tone or hear the words that you use and automatically make assumptions about you. Yeah, and none of that is valid, because you have no idea, just because you hear me talking in slang, what I actually know and don't know.

Sandy Paulino:

Yeah, the key there, I think, is the ability to connect with as many people as possible, because you you speak with other people in your culture, but at the same time you go on like netflix and you watch something in spanish. It's spain, spanish most of the time and even then I kind of have been able to find an appreciation for spain spanish because it sounds kind of weird to us. But then when you see them in discourse with each other, it's the same exact vibe that we would have speaking to our own people.

Jennylee Ramos:

Just different dialect or a different way.

Sandy Paulino:

Exactly, it's just the environment and you know there's a bunch of different reasons why language is the way that it is.

Jennifer Paulino:

Now I think it's even interesting the fact that. So me and you have the same mom and dad were raised in the same environment, but your vocabulary is a lot larger than mine. That's like a school thing, right. But then again, people will listen to you speak and they will automatically assume like speak in English. They will automatically assume that you're probably more educated than I am because of the language, because you use words like discourse. But so do you. Yeah, because you use words like discourse.

Jennylee Ramos:

But so do you?

Jennifer Paulino:

Yeah, but like even then like people will listen to me and for the most part I use the language that I feel comfortable with, based on the environment that I'm in. But he uses words like discourse on the regular when he's talking to the general public.

Jennylee Ramos:

But all of this is about like, and I know you.

Jennylee Ramos:

This is all about like what you consume, like the media that you consume, the literature that you consume and what's around you, because it has nothing to do with who is more educated or where you like, right, that doesn't matter. I think it's just like what you get used to hearing and how people talk around you, because if you are around people that that's a regular like vocabulary word that they use, you're going to get the hint of that. But if you're around people who are like, what the heck is he talking about?

Jennylee Ramos:

You're not going to use those type of words, like it just depends on what you're consuming.

Sandy Paulino:

To that I would just say if I was in an environment where you guys at your workplace, right when you write an email and when you speak to people in a meeting, if I were to hop on that meeting or write that email, they'd be like yo, who's this, who's this guy? Like as far as if I was, if I were to, if I were to like pretend to be you, necessarily, if I was trying to write an email for you or maybe somehow I was able to speak for you, it would not at all be the vibe that the meeting is having, because they'd be like oh, because I'm very business casual when it comes to that kind of stuff, and she's very customer service so business professional yeah yeah, business professional.

Sandy Paulino:

So I think that in that setting they'd be like oh, this guy doesn't know how to handle himself in a meeting, right? And they'll see my sister and be like oh you know, she's so good at speaking in a corporate office or in a corporate space because of what you were saying earlier, the things that you're exposed to and what you're used to, and what you consume on a regular basis.

Jennifer Paulino:

You know, what's so interesting about that is, the structure of emails is really dictated by the generation. So like, for example, me, that when I was learning how to write emails, it was like when people were like using emails as a form of like it might as well have been a fax like yeah, like it was, like we. That little laptop didn't exist. It was like big, bulky, like fat laptops, and I remember learning how to write an email and it was like to whom this may concern, or dear so-and-so.

Jennylee Ramos:

It was like you were writing a letter and it was like best wishes.

Jennifer Paulino:

And it was just this level of like I guess, professionalism not even like only or just formality, I don't even know. Yeah, there was like so when I started getting into the corporate space after college and people started in the workplace sending me emails that didn't have a greeting and a salutation, I was like but I came from higher ed and that's how students send emails like.

Jennifer Paulino:

I was very confused, I like when people didn't say like if you have questions or concerns, please feel free to reach out. Or like, should you have questions? Like when there were like little things that I was taught were like if you don't put this in your email, you are not getting an email back. When I started seeing people do that, I was like no, I'm very.

Jennylee Ramos:

I feel like I got bullied into sending like very proper emails because when I was at Temple, I had a job there, where and this obviously comes back to it always comes back to like who you are and your race, but I, anything that I sent out was seen as like aggressive.

Jennylee Ramos:

Like I promise you every single email that I sent. Somebody read it, yelling Like I don't know what it was, no matter how I formatted, no matter how many to whom it made concerns. I put it in there Like when I sent an email, my supervisor got a call saying like Jenny is sending a very aggressive and sassy email and I just got so anxious about like the words that I used and that's why I use so many exclamation points now and I'm always like thank you so much, like I'm almost like thank you so much, like I'm like super high-pitched and peppy in emails because of that, because I don't want to be seen as unprofessional and funny enough.

Jennylee Ramos:

Another moment where I got bullied into like trying to be more professional I was um trying to get an externship when I was in my master's program. Um and this probe I would have got into this and I was very qualified, I did very good in my interview, I would got in, they would have paid for my entire tuition and I apparently got denied because I was not professional enough. Like this is like told to me verbatim that I was not professional enough and the example that was given to me was that when I sent the emails out to the people that were managing the program that I used only their first name like to greet them Instead of like Mr so, mr so and so Mrs so, and so that I just used their first name, and that just showed how unprofessional I was right but if you were in the externship they'd be like, oh, just call me, just call me Bob.

Jennylee Ramos:

I'm sure that the person who ended up getting the role didn't have that and also did find out who got the job over me. So that's interesting, but I just I don't know. I feel like that's another issue, like trying to build barriers around professionalism, which in that moment I was still younger and I was very frustrated because I'm just like, first and foremost, y'all should be lucky. I'm out here being this proper and this, this proper once again, and this professional, because nobody in my family taught me this yeah, like I, like I didn't learn this anyway.

Jennylee Ramos:

I had to teach myself this.

Jennifer Paulino:

But see, that then goes back to a level of what does professionalism mean? Right Cause we get into that topic. And so I've come from the corporate space and I've come from the advertising space, which interjects in the corporate space, and you go into these environments and, for example, in a banking environment, you've got the suit and tie and you've got all of this red tape and you've got all of these chains of commands and you have all of these restrictions on the way that you can approach people, right. But then you go into the advertising industry and people come with jeans to work, but then again there's still a level of professionalism and having a cultural fit.

Jennylee Ramos:

Right.

Jennifer Paulino:

And they have a level of professionalism that they deem is appropriate and a level that's inappropriate. But those lines are so blurred because you go to the banking happy hours, allegedly, allegedly, allegedly, even though it's a play, but that's not inappropriate because it's after work hours.

Jennylee Ramos:

But also I think that because, as people of color, we're not in the spaces to establish what's appropriate and what's inappropriate, that, like we don't have, we're not privy to that, so it's not up to us, like we're kind of like at the mercy of whoever decides, it's professional, and when they decide, it's professional.

Sandy Paulino:

Yeah, the thing that I've found interesting, that's really actually helped me this whole past year. I've really been exposed to a lot of corporate spaces, a lot of professional people, and the interesting thing is that there's this kind of there's a safe space where you can live when you're talking to somebody and especially if you're trying to, if it's a transaction right.

Sandy Paulino:

Even if it's a casual conversation sometimes you're trying to get an opportunity or maybe they're trying to get an opportunity there's a safe space where you can be casual but at the same time, keep a professional atmosphere and I think where, like if you don't call them Mr Whatever in your email, you have to, like you probably don't want to be in that space anyways.

Jennylee Ramos:

No, for sure you learn that now, because it's like you.

Sandy Paulino:

If a company, realistically, is asking you to be a certain way, it should be that way within the company. But most of the time when somebody is asking you to call them Mr and Mrs Something, once you actually get the opportunity and you get in there, you realize that nobody is actually like that. And then you're out here like you're putting on this facade and you're trying to be this thing that you're presenting yourself as and nobody else is doing that. So I think there's kind of you know, I've gotten a lot of experience with real people that are like hey, we're having this conversation, we're having this interview, and obviously we have to keep a level of professionalism, but at the same time we're two people having a conversation. At the end of the day that's what it is. So we kind of, like you said, we're not privy to that vibe growing up.

Sandy Paulino:

So when we get there it's kind of like we either overdo it or since we're not educated on the situation, we don't know how to do it, and I guess getting that experience is how we kind of find the balance. But there's not a lot of that going around for our category.

Jennifer Paulino:

Yeah, I wouldn't say there's not a lot of it going around for a category. I would just say there's not enough people that look like us giving the education to people that look like us.

Jennifer Paulino:

That's what I mean, Because for example, the advice that I got growing up was about professionalism as it related to companies that had all of this red tape and were very like buy the book. And then I got into an industry that was a total opposite of that and I ended up finding a weird balance in between where I realized that if I couldn't be accepted in the way that I came in, that wasn't an environment I wanted to be in. But that took a lot of falling down. That took a lot of me walking into spaces, thinking I had to be a certain way, and then looking at people that were getting paid more than me, who were doing less than me, who were acting way less professional than I was, and realizing that my choices in employer matter just as much as their choices in employee.

Jennylee Ramos:

Oh, absolutely. But we didn't feel like we had that choice. Like I just don't feel like we felt like we could make those decisions, because a lot of the time we're especially in our environment. I don't know if you guys felt the same with your upbringing, but like you kind of feel like anything that you get you have to be grateful for like that's why a lot of times, like we take the first offer we get, we take the first job, we do whatever.

Jennylee Ramos:

Like they ask us to do something that's like outside of our boundaries, we're gonna go anyways because we could get fired at any moment and, like, god forbid. I think it's the same reason why sometimes people that are in those positions the few of us that are in those positions don't always extend the hand or try to teach or try to give back because we're like yeah, you're just like if I do that, then who's gonna you gonna come and take my job?

Jennylee Ramos:

I don't think so. So I think there's a lot of that and a lot of imposter syndrome going around, but that it's kind of that, kind of that, the poverty mentality of having enough.

Sandy Paulino:

You know you never had anything. So once you get something, you feel like you're gonna lose it right away. And we spoke about this before, about how our culture, when we in America we work really hard and in the way I like to say it is that sometimes we work harder rather than smarter.

Sandy Paulino:

Absolutely you know, like, do you have a lot, of, a lot of Latinos and Hispanics in the workforce that could be either getting paid way more or could be doing a lot less for the money that they're getting. And simply because we have that mentality of whatever we get is what we get, you know, like I'll accept, like I'll accept this because I'm doing a job or I'll do this because I'm getting paid for it, rather than actually weighing the pros and cons, comparing it to other people's experiences, we just kind of accept it as it comes to us, so that, I guess, is kind of what you're speaking to, and that way we're just like so used to counting our blessings that sometimes we don't take the opportunities that we could be.

Jennifer Paulino:

Yeah, and I would say that also goes to like setting boundaries. So, like for me, for example, I'm a night owl, so I'm the kind of person that does a lot of my best work at night. Because there's no distractions, there's no interruptions, I can like fully focus. Now I realized that over time I would be working really late hours and people expected me to answer their emails at that late hour because in their mind, that was not a boundary that existed. It's like if I sent Jen an email at six o'clock, she gonna answer it. And I started getting stressed out because I was no longer working at my best, because that was the time that I worked best.

Sandy Paulino:

I was working at a necessary time to suit somebody else's needs but if you were to email them at six o'clock, you wouldn't get a response to the next day, right exactly?

Jennifer Paulino:

so what I started doing was I started working at night and I started scheduling my emails so that they went out at the times that were work hours or right before work hours. So I started drafting my emails at 12 o'clock at night, one in the morning, but they would be scheduled to send at 7, 30, 12 o'clock at night, one in the morning, but they would be scheduled to send at 7.30, 8 o'clock. I might still be in bed, I might be in the way to work.

Jennylee Ramos:

You don't know what I'm doing. You don't know what I'm doing.

Jennifer Paulino:

But you know that I did the work.

Jennifer Paulino:

The work got done, and the work got done in the time it needed to get done, but I worked within the parameters that I was comfortable with and I could do my best work. Now, granted, that doesn't work for everything. There are times that you actually like. For example, there are times that my boss will ask me for something at 7, 8 o'clock at night, and I know that it's important because he needs it, for something that he needs to turn in, and he just hasn't gotten the time to come to me. There is a level of okay, I can set this boundary, and there is a level of okay, I can set this boundary and there's a level of you actually are counting on me right now.

Jennifer Paulino:

Yeah, so I think that and that was a line that I didn't understand I always thought that I had to be at everybody's beck and call if they were above me, because of that fear of like I'm gonna lose my job. And then I slowly started realizing do you actually need this or do you just want this?

Jennifer Paulino:

because it's convenient for you and had to kind of find the line between there so that I was being effective, but I also wasn't like not being reliable but you have to realize that that like need to like perform and need to please, and that that feeling comes from like us kind of.

Jennylee Ramos:

How do I explain? Like us? I guess reenacting our parents' experiences. At least for me it was definitely reenacting my parents' experiences, like they had less opportunities and had to kind of be at the beck and call of their situation. And because that's what you see, even though you have more resources, even though you're more skilled and like or more have more of an educational background, you still act the same way because that's what you grew up seeing. You grew up seeing them having to do whatever was put in their plate in order to put food on the table. So we kind of like inherited that like desperation and that lack of boundaries from like, from our parents, like, even though we may have not really been in that situation or had those restrictions, we still act the same way, like a lot of us do.

Jennifer Paulino:

But you know what's funny is that translates beyond the workplace that translates into relationships, friendships. I remember keeping friends around and keeping significant others around um in my life that I felt like I couldn't do any better, or that I or like there was something that I was doing wrong or I needed to do better in order for them. Like it was always, I was the problem because there was not or I didn't have enough of something so I just always kind of like conformed to what was put in front of me, because that was all I had, right.

Jennifer Paulino:

And it goes back to that same ideology of you kind of settle into what's there because that's what's there and our parents taught us that that's what's there, so that's what you're going to take or you're sticking around with them just to complete, because I know that's like the biggest Dominican headache of life Cumpliendo with people.

Sandy Paulino:

No matter what you do, just do it, just do it.

Jennylee Ramos:

Yeah, like you do it so that people don't say, so, that people see, so that like it doesn't come off this way, like I'm convinced and hopefully this is not all Dominicans, but I am convinced that it's such a thing in our culture to like live for other people and for other people's perception of us.

Jennifer Paulino:

That's why Dominicans stay in jobs for so long.

Sandy Paulino:

This is another point that was touched on before was the difference of being Dominican in this country and Dominican in the Dominican Republic. Like our sense of community does not work the same in America.

Sandy Paulino:

At all you know, because we don't have. There's not the same like lax lifestyle In DR. You could, you know, the day in dr just seems way longer than in america. You know, and people that, people that have been in this country and have been in the big republic can can vouch for this. But when you in america you don't have people asking for sugar anymore like you don't. Your neighbor doesn't come up to your door asking for sugar.

Jennylee Ramos:

Your neighbor doesn't pull up to your crib because when your neighbor pulls up, you're like yeah exactly, and nobody ever pulls up unannounced here like oh, for sure you're sending a calendar invite or you're sending a text that I'm doing.

Jennifer Paulino:

Yeah, I'm not gonna lie, yeah, exactly, but when you go?

Sandy Paulino:

when you go to dr, you pull up to someone's crib and they serve you coffee yeah and low-key.

Jennylee Ramos:

If you send a calendar invite, they'll probably be rude yeah, yeah, it's like yeah, and honestly you're like I have to invite you, like that's offensive, like why would I need to do all that?

Jennifer Paulino:

we cool, we family also and to that point, ndr, when you set an appointment with somebody, if you don't show up, there is not this like here, it doesn't matter, yeah something came up yeah, like if you, if jenny said to you today like, oh, I can't make it today, you probably would have low-key felt a type of way, even if, like, something happened on the road and she just couldn't.

Jennifer Paulino:

You would have felt a type of way in dr would have been like, ah, yo lo veo en la sirena yeah, I'll see him around sometime, like there's just this level of like there's no accountability for not showing up some, which is also sometimes kind of problematic. It was like we, if you hadn't showed up, it was like okay, like kind of felt that way because I kind of had this day planned, but like there was no like, why are you?

Jennylee Ramos:

late yeah and there was definitely some coffee here yeah, yeah, there has to be, but you know.

Sandy Paulino:

But when we were having the meeting about this, you mentioned that people from our culture are always asking for a favor without that compensation, like the free favor.

Jennylee Ramos:

Because, again.

Sandy Paulino:

It works in Dominican Republic because you're always seeing each other, so it's always going to be compensated. It's always going to be repaid, even if it's unintentionally. But here you go. You can go so long without seeing somebody that lives right next to you.

Jennylee Ramos:

So that favor becomes a little more, a little less convenient and it becomes a little more selfish yeah, but also like I feel that in the, in dominican republic or a lot of countries like that, it's way more of a community vibe. Like I'm not doing you a favor because you need a favor. I'm doing you a favor because one day you're going to look out for me. You know I'm doing you a favor because I look out for your kid, you look out for my kid when I'm not around, like you looking at my house you making sure nobody's coming.

Jennylee Ramos:

You going to let me know if something happens in the block, like it's that kind of feel and that's okay, whereas, like here, it's very individualistic, like that's not the case at all. Like if I'm doing you a favor, what's my return? When am I getting that back?

Jennylee Ramos:

Like no for real it's a lot different. Like, anything that I'm doing for you seems like something I'm taking away from me here. I feel like that's definitely the American kind of mindset. It's very like give and take and very transactional. And I think that it becomes problematic when, like, we try to mix those words, like those worlds excuse me and we're kind of like I want to have, like being community, but I don't want to get taken advantage of and I want to give but like it's just, it's just not the same concept and you don't know how to approach it. Like it's kind of like when you don't know whether to give somebody a hug or a handshake or a kiss on the cheek.

Sandy Paulino:

I think it's that mix of cultures in America which is a good and a bad thing. So, you have these kind of weird moments where you don't know what you should be doing.

Sandy Paulino:

And then there's some times where you kind of both agree on something but at the same time we run into that problem of community, where people want to be a community but since we're in this environment of give and take, and you know what do I get for that, you know, quid pro quo, it's kind of it's hard to gauge that because there's not one definitional way to do it.

Jennylee Ramos:

No, absolutely.

Sandy Paulino:

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Jennifer Paulino:

I think, for to that specific point, there's a level of just awareness that you have to have also in your environment, because I think there are times where people give and like, for example, me, I'm a very like, give, give, give kind of person and at some point in time I had to realize you can't always give without expecting to receive at some point, and I think here in America that balance of always giving and wanting to receive became almost like a foundational piece of giving, versus in DR it was you just give.

Sandy Paulino:

Yeah, something don't come back. Yeah, like something won't come back.

Jennylee Ramos:

That's what my mom says. My mom is always like you have to be like that with people because of the universe. Like God is going to repay it no matter what. Like you don't have to worry about them doing something for you. Like God will handle it Right.

Jennifer Paulino:

And it was like I think it for you, like god will handle it, like right, yeah, and it was like, I think, for me being dominican and feeling like I could just give, give, give, give, give was cool, but it wasn't until right until it wasn't, because the culture here is not like that and the people that are here that are raised in an american environment are very much like oh, you're gonna keep giving to me and I don't have to do anything.

Jennifer Paulino:

Well like well, I'm just gonna keep reeling that in right, which is what we run into in the professional space, where latinos who are used to i'ma just give and give and give, never expecting anything back, because the universe get right. You get burnt out and that's the. That's the reality of the human nature is you can give as much as you want, but your perspective and your mentality has to be healthy to be able to do that and not feel that burnout in a culture that expects that give and take.

Sandy Paulino:

I think you should be able to give whatever you can without giving away yourself. You know, if you have the capacity to give in a manner that is not detrimental to your own situation, then go ahead. You know but. If you get into that give, give, give until you know you have nothing.

Jennylee Ramos:

Then you know that's not but I feel like, like, as Dominican Americans, we're the only ones that have like the privilege of thinking about that or trying to like find that balance. Because I feel like for Dominicans, or at least in my experience, it's just a lifestyle, Like it's not even like I have to find the balance to see what works. Like my boyfriend's mom God bless her heart, she is such a giving person. And I friend's mom god bless her heart, she is such a giving person and I sometimes feel guilty. I'm like, yeah, am I rude? Like do I have a problem? Because, like, if I go and take her something she's like, but I have to give to everybody else, like if I go and bring her anything she's like, I need to make sure that I put some aside to take to my cousin, to take to my brother tomorrow, like with anything, like if they're standing.

Jennylee Ramos:

They were standing on the line the other day and I was like like, oh, I should go and take them the hot hands or whatever it's called, the things that keep them warm, and some hot chocolate. She would want to give that to everybody on the line. She would be like did you bring for everyone else that's here with us today? And I think that's so sweet. But I'm just like I see you doing that and obviously as a Dominican American, when I see that, I'm like girl, why would we do that? Like those people do not care, like those people are not thinking about you. Like that, if they got that in the back, they're not gonna bring it to you, but she doesn't, even she doesn't consider that and she doesn't care. Like she's just. Like that means nothing to me, whether they want to or not. Like I'm right with the world, like I'm gonna do that.

Jennifer Paulino:

And I was gonna say there's a level of religion to that too, because dominicans are very religious by culture, not even by like spirituality, but but by culture. Because even in the Bible and like in Catholicism, christianity, judaism, you give everything you got, even if you're left with nothing at the end of the day, because God is going to bless you in that religious sense.

Jennifer Paulino:

That Dominicans come to this country and if one of them comes to this country and lives in a one-bedroom apartment, their 25 cousins that come after them will live in that apartment until they've been able to get on their feet and they will split that one slice of bread until everybody's got in their little car and let me tell you you're going to have to complete with those people.

Jennylee Ramos:

for the rest, of your life.

Jennylee Ramos:

Because, no, my dad is like that. My dad is like there's people that he has experienced those type of things with, that he's like I can never say no to them. If they ask me for anything, I have to say yes because we've experienced that together. And I just think that's so interesting, because we have that need and that culture to have to like always, I don't know like look out for each other, be generous, which is great and fantastic, but doesn't translate here the same yeah, that was going to be.

Sandy Paulino:

My point earlier is that we have, as in, of course, there's so many different cultures and things that probably can resonate with this it's very what's best for the group what's best? For the community and that is that kind of you know give. Just give to your neighbor and eventually somebody is going to bring it around and give it to you. And the Western culture is very do your be on your your own.

Sandy Paulino:

you know stuff, get yours and get out of there and you can you know it's not necessarily a good or bad thing either way, but when you try to do too much of one thing, especially when you try to have that communal vibe in a very individual, individualistic setting, it doesn't work.

Jennifer Paulino:

The same thing would happen vice versa if you try to be extremely individual in a very communal setting, you're gonna not do very well in that atmosphere do you think that has something and this is just a weird thought that just dawned on me and you would probably have to do a lot of research to like really figure it out but do you think it has to do with colonialism? Because if you look at colonialism and look at the different countries, the encyclopedia, over here.

Jennifer Paulino:

No, like okay. So think about, like the Caribbean islands, a lot of the latino, like latin america, and the way that we view community versus the united states and canada, which is very um individualized. And so when you think about the latinx and caribbean countries, you think about the way that they were founded. Yes, they were colonized, but a lot of the people that have like inhabit those spaces are people of African descent, are people of indigenous descent, are people that were founded in communities that were built on like we got to stick together.

Jennylee Ramos:

They lived off each other. Yeah, we got to stick together in order to survive. To survive, yeah Right.

Jennifer Paulino:

They came in and they were like we came to escape those people that were trying to oppress us, and if y'all get in our way, y'all getting your head cut off.

Sandy Paulino:

Yeah, they came in and they were like we came to escape those people that were trying to oppress us, and if y'all get in our way, y'all getting your head cut off yeah, follow the plan and keep your head down, yeah and it was it's kind of survive where you can for them for for I guess, the community more of the community setting and survive where you are, yeah, and then the colonialism is more go where you can absolutely yeah when you get there like they work so hard because you got to see it from their perspective. When you work so hard to get away from whatever you're running from wherever you go like sorry.

Jennylee Ramos:

You're trying to do your thing? Yeah, because if you, think about like. No, but that makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, Like.

Jennifer Paulino:

Think about the settlements. They colonized the east right, the east coast, and then, as they moved west, it was like they were taking what they could take and they didn't really care what what it cost them.

Sandy Paulino:

They were like what I know is that I'm not, but even to rebuttal that when you, if you're, if we're talking america specifically, the further west you go, kind of like the less they care yeah, you know, I think you got those colonizers at the end of the line. They were like you know, I guess you know like these people are like whatever works, they're going hard over here.

Jennifer Paulino:

But also think about the further west you go, who that land used to belong to.

Sandy Paulino:

That's true, yeah.

Jennifer Paulino:

Okay. Like the people that were there. It was like that wasn't a we're going to take this by blood. It was kind of like we can either take it by blood or y'all could just like be part of us and like give it to us and we give you a little, something we're gonna exploit.

Jennylee Ramos:

And there was less people too, like as as we moved west, there was less people moving west, right it's interesting because I just feel like, as dominican americans are just like latinx, like we are intertwined in all of this, like all of it is just based, like our entire route is just based off intersectionality and we have we get to see a little bit of it all and experience a little bit of it all, and like it's kind of like we were talking about when we went to school, like we don't fit in in any of those boxes, like we're not super generous, we're not super individualistic, like we don't know, and I feel like in either one of those spaces I don't know if you guys have this and this is a different topic.

Jennylee Ramos:

I apologize, but I don't know if you guys have this at home where I personally feel like I don't give enough. I know my parents came and if my dad is making $10, he's sending $5 to my grandma, no matter what it has to. He has to send a percentage over there. And my family in the Dominican Republic is like, like you working, send some money and I'm just like I don't have that custom in America.

Jennylee Ramos:

People usually like set their kids up and then the kid just does their thing and worries about and worries about becoming, you know, financially free and then like later, I got you, but like right now I can't really give you half of what I got. It's not enough. But they don't think that way because they're like no, no, no, like here you have to Like. That's the expectation. So even if I do send like or I try to like give a little bit here and there, it's not the same as like what my parents are doing. It's not the same at all.

Sandy Paulino:

so I don't know if you guys have that experience. My mom literally she she's one of six kids, I think, and she has all brothers. She was not only she's the youngest, but she's also the only girl. She grew up taking care of all of them, basically, though. So now that she's in, she's the one that ended up in the better position. She's still doing the same thing they have. Obviously they're they're individuals. Some of them do their thing, some of them are a little more dependent, but at the end of the day, no matter what anyone's position is, she's always the one giving to them.

Sandy Paulino:

That's exactly the role that my parents play, my dad, my dad is the one that kind of got out the trenches too. Even though his, his siblings are not all they're not, they're like in pretty good situations, he's the one that's usually giving a little bit more, because he's in the better position. So it's kind of you know if we're going to make this political it's kind of like a socialism that's built into the family dynamic. Absolutely, the person that's doing the best is also giving the most but yes, even and it's expected to.

Jennylee Ramos:

It's not because it's from their hearts, because they have to complete, yeah, but you know what's?

Jennifer Paulino:

funny is even then, if you look at my parents, my mom's family is very much like traditional Dominican and my dad's family has been in this country for so long that they're very American in their way of thinking. They're very much individualized because they've set their own foundations, like they're really like it's about me first, and then I got y'all, but then again with them they came to this country to do that, to do that so it's like they didn't like.

Jennifer Paulino:

I also think it's how you come to the country, too, and the way that you establish because, like they are very much like I'm gonna set me up and then I got y'all. But they're like that with everything, including their kids kids Versus my dad, for example. Like when we got into this apartment, I was like I told my dad that I was looking to rent a place and I was like I don't have the full, like three months of rent that I need to give as a deposit. He was like how much is it? I'll front you, you pay me back later.

Jennifer Paulino:

Now taking a loan for my dad is very much like I got you when you retire and I gotta take care of you.

Jennylee Ramos:

Like that's just. I'ma keep that, Don't worry, Like I got you later yeah.

Jennifer Paulino:

Like that's just how me and my dad work. Like our financial, our financial relationship is very much based on I'm going to set you up. You're very much independent and I'm going to set you up to continue to be independent, because I know that once you're independent, the rest is gonna follow.

Jennylee Ramos:

But you gotta think about the fact that he's probably doing that for the same reason my dad, because I have a similar issue with my dad and it's because that was not the case for him. So he's like I'm trying to do something a little different because my dad was sent here to help everybody else, like they were. Like you go over there and you make money and you send it back. Thanks.

Sandy Paulino:

That was his sole purpose.

Jennylee Ramos:

That was the expectation from the beginning. So I'm sure our parents are like alright, I have to do this, but I want y'all to worry about your own thing, Like daddy my dad jokes about it. But even though they do that, I still feel the pressure to have to give back.

Jennifer Paulino:

I pay my dad back.

Sandy Paulino:

We can't be that disconnected.

Jennifer Paulino:

Yeah, like I pay him back and like sometimes he'll call me and he'll be like hey, I ain't got no money in my account so what you got?

Jennifer Paulino:

And I'm like this is what I got, dad, like this is all I got. We gonna have to make this work and other times living here, I pay all the bills but like I always send him a little extra to pay the mortgage because I'm like you know, I owe you a lot like there's no amount in the amount of money in the world that is going to pay for what my parents have done. Even even if my dad were to take all of the money that he's ever owed, like bar let me borrow and then discounted the money that I've let him borrow, that still wouldn't amount to the debt that I have because of the type of parents that we have. When you have parents that are willing to put your needs first and make sure that your future is set, there's no amount of money that can pay for that.

Jennylee Ramos:

I agree. Do you feel like that's the reason why we're all as motivated?

Sandy Paulino:

as we are, yeah.

Jennylee Ramos:

Because I feel like I'm just like I can't let all this. My mom came into YOLA like I'm not letting that go to waste.

Sandy Paulino:

Yeah yeah, Because they also had like those little microaggressions growing up where they were. Like you know, I'm not paying for nothing, you know I'm not True.

Jennylee Ramos:

Oh, absolutely.

Sandy Paulino:

When I was getting into certain endeavors and my dad would have to pay, he'd be like I. Better see something.

Jennifer Paulino:

Yeah, that poor little violin Yo every time my dad sees that violin. It's sitting over there in the corner. I brought it here because every time he would say it, he would look at it, he would make a comment about how much money he spent on that violin and how I never became like the next.

Jennylee Ramos:

Listen. You see, that is actually the reason why I didn't even have any hobbies growing up, because I tried to play basketball and my dad was like you better not mess up these sneakers and my money If you're not going to become a part of the WNBA. And I was like no, I'm good off that, like I'm not even going to waste your bread.

Sandy Paulino:

Ah, you know what? I don't even like basketball basketball exactly like he was.

Jennylee Ramos:

Like I'm not. I can't bring you here every day and invest if you're not about to be the greatest and I was like you know what's funny is do you think that translates to you?

Jennifer Paulino:

and I said do you know that's funny a lot of times in this conversation, but do you think that translates to your? Because, like we were talking about this, earlier how we only do things that we know we're good at, absolutely, and like we stray, stray away from the things that we know we're not the greatest, we may try it, but if we're not the greatest, we're like ah.

Jennylee Ramos:

Yes, because opportunity cost hurts me.

Jennifer Paulino:

Yeah.

Jennylee Ramos:

Hurts me bad Because that's how I grew up. My dad was like yo, you don't have time to waste. Not time, not money. Money is time. You have to make sure that whatever you're doing like there's going to be a return Like, and that's, I think, why it's hard for me to even have a hobby, that it's just something that I enjoy. And I think a lot of people, like a lot of millennials especially, are like what is a hobby? Because, like I started during during quarantine, I started like trying to like write letters and like do little stamps going to make a negocio? Like, you're going to make that a business? Like, how are we?

Jennylee Ramos:

going to monetize this little activity you got going on and I'm like I cannot just do something without being like how can I make this as effective and as like, as like profitable as possible? And I just think that that is the mindset with everything that we do, that our parents are like how are you going to like flip that?

Sandy Paulino:

See, I think my experience is actually a little different from that, actually, because this also goes back to the relationship I had with my teachers. I would have that personal relationship in the classroom where, even if I didn't get that, they obviously had higher expectations, since they showed that personal side with me. Just like my parents, like when you invest in something, you want to see the output.

Sandy Paulino:

But I was a very figure out how to do it if you can't do it one way. So if I had a good relationship with my teacher and I didn't get a good score on my test, the next assignment would be fire, or my paper would be fire, just like with my parents. If I didn't come home in baseball, if I had a bad game in baseball with my dad, I would go super hard at practice the next day. So it was kind of I had to find an alternative to whatever I fell short in and because of that I was able to really find the. I guess the difference between our situations is that I don't feel that opportunity costs pressure, because I feel like I'm going to get it back another way.

Jennylee Ramos:

That's interesting and I wonder if, like being like the oldest has anything to do with that.

Jennylee Ramos:

Like I'm thinking about that because I don't feel that way at all. Like I feel like I like I love psychology in high school, like I was obsessed, I honestly wanted to double major and like do psychology in college and I took an AP psychology course and I thought I was doing great and I definitely failed. I definitely did not pass the AP test and I was done. There was no Anytime that I failed at something I was like I'm good off that next. It wasn't like, oh, I'm going to try on the next one really hard.

Sandy Paulino:

It was like that's not my thing, we gotta. We don't have time to try to perfect this if I'm not naturally good at this.

Jennylee Ramos:

We gotta move on to the next thing on the list. Yeah, ap's a setup, but no, I was done like I. There was a lot of things in my life that were like that same thing, like with basketball, same thing with anything that I picked up.

Sandy Paulino:

I was like volleyball I tried a lot of things and I was if I wasn't good yo, that's it.

Jennifer Paulino:

I was like I'm good off this like you know, what's so interesting is I had a weird in-between experience where, like, I very much only tried things that I knew I was good at, but like the problem was that if I tried something and I failed, I had to prove to you that I could do it. So like if, god forbid, I did something that I thought I could succeed at and I failed, there there was no turning back. I was going to do it into because. So this goes back to a bike story. I always tell this story.

Jennifer Paulino:

My dad bought me a bike and it had training wheels and I rode it with training wheels and then all of my other friends on the block got their training wheels taken off and I really wanted my training wheels off. And and my dad was like I don't think that you're ready. Like he kept telling me like those are the magic words, god forbid, yeah. Like he kept trying to tell me that, like I didn't have enough practice on the bike and I really wanted the training wheels off my bike. Eventually he took the training wheels off my bike. Didn't take a lot of convincing. He was like, ah, tu quieres, tu quieres seguir, tu vas correr. Convincing, he was there, ah.

Jennifer Paulino:

So he taught me a little bit and then I fell off my bike and he told me that I could not go back inside until I learned how to ride my bike. You best believe, I learned how to ride that bike because I wanted him to put the training balls back on. He was like that's not how that works I never heard that you ever heard this story?

Jennifer Paulino:

I tell the story all the time, um, and so that is how I learned. Actually, there is a picture of daddy sitting reading a book and you on mommy's lap and I was sitting in front of the house where this happened. We used to live on a military base and I remember, I believe, the kids it was a little kid next door, it was like a little white boy. Um, I remember why this story very vividly, because he told me that it built this is like my first it builds character lesson for my dad, um, and he was like no, you're gonna learn. And I learned, I learned how to ride the bike. And after that it was like if you're gonna try something, you're gonna put in your full effort, and if you putting in all you got still fails, then it's just not for you, but like at least you learned something that's interesting.

Jennylee Ramos:

I don't know. I just feel like I grew up with like a natural finesse. And if I couldn't naturally finesse?

Sandy Paulino:

it.

Jennylee Ramos:

I was like it's not for me Like and I feel like my defense mechanism, like I would have that energy for something I really wanted to learn, but not because, like people told me, that I couldn't like, my defense mechanism leads me to be like and I don't care, so now what?

Jennifer Paulino:

I'm also from the Bronx so I was just very aggressive.

Sandy Paulino:

See, I was aggressive in the opposite way.

Jennifer Paulino:

I wanted to prove to you that I could. If you told me I couldn't, I'd be like oh word Bet.

Jennylee Ramos:

That, you see, is the difference. I feel like. For me it came from when you know, when you're little and people make fun of you and they're like tell them that you don't care and the bullies ain't gonna feel stupid. That was my approach to everything.

Sandy Paulino:

No, but that's like a Bronx thing too, though. So that's now. That's like physically where you grew up?

Jennylee Ramos:

Yeah, a lot of my cousins. So what's up like I don't matter anymore. You know, I wasn't even trying to do that, exactly that's not even that wasn't even the goal anyway. So what are you talking about? That's actually my approach to life.

Jennifer Paulino:

It's funny because it's very much like oh, you want me to climb a tree, but I'm a fish, so what?

Jennylee Ramos:

like no, yeah, no, I and I'm I'm very forward about that, like I just if I'm good at it, naturally I'm all for it. I'm extra competitive, like I mentioned, like I'll go hard, but if it's just not my thing, I'm like we're not going to talk about that today.

Sandy Paulino:

Next, yeah, I guess for me that attributes to when I was younger. I was never not that I was never naturally good at anything, but I didn't know what I was naturally good at. Okay, because the only thing I was naturally good at that I can remember is playing with toys and baseball.

Jennylee Ramos:

Which is still playing with toys.

Sandy Paulino:

Yeah, it's just playing. So physically playing was the only thing that I consciously knew that I was good at. So then, when it came to other things, I had to figure out how to do it, because for me, for my sister, I got more of the it builds character thing and for me, I got more of the figure out how to do it. You know you got to complete this task in whatever way you can complete it. So when I came across other hobbies or other like I got really good at skipping rocks at one age Because I was with a group of friends. Really good at skipping rocks at one age because I really I was in, I was with a group of friends and we were skipping rocks yeah, no, yeah, somewhere different.

Jennylee Ramos:

I'm like what rocks was I skipping? Anywhere near new york city like there was this, and what pond was I doing that?

Sandy Paulino:

but anyways, I was with a group of people and we were by a body of water and we were throwing rocks right and I had never skipped a rock. I had never in my entire life even knew.

Sandy Paulino:

I didn't even know rocks could walk on the water like Jesus, but they were throwing it and I was really bad at it. So I had already gotten into that mentality of figure it out. So for the next couple of months I would literally collect rocks from the ground wherever I was. If there was a rock that could be skipped, I picked it up, I took it home and then I would go to I was persistent.

Sandy Paulino:

Yes, and then, like I would just look for an opportunity to skip rocks, I'd be like yo, y'all going to the pond. Oh, like you know, we're going, we're going to some sort of body of water. I would bring a bag of rocks and I would skip them joints, and so I got really good, and then it didn't matter anymore, because nobody was skipping rocks. And this is the reason why I don't put that much effort into anything, but that's what I did with everything. Yeah, it was just, but that's a good skill, though.

Jennifer Paulino:

But then one day he's going to come across some people that want to skip rocks.

Jennylee Ramos:

And he's going to have that talent in his pocket.

Sandy Paulino:

It does pay off sometimes.

Jennifer Paulino:

There's some things that I picked up that I've been able to use, but yeah, yeah, I think that's for me like one of the things that has always kind of got me to that level of like. I should really try, because eventually I may need this. Like for example, one of the things that I have gotten really good at is remembering really unnecessary facts.

Sandy Paulino:

I think that's a dad thing, though, because I'm up there too.

Jennifer Paulino:

Yeah, like I just know useless information that one day becomes useful, like I'll be sitting in a conversation and be like yo. Did you know?

Jennylee Ramos:

I did not grow up like that.

Jennifer Paulino:

Fun fact. And then people are like wow, how do you know? I'm like, I genuinely don't know where I remember that from.

Sandy Paulino:

I get a lot of. Why do you know that? Yeah, I get that too.

Jennifer Paulino:

And then it's funny because I got to question myself sometimes, Like when I come out with these fun facts, because sometimes it's word vomit and I'll be like wait, is that true, Did I make that up? And then I'll go Google and I'm like no, no, I was right.

Jennylee Ramos:

It's just nuts. How much we are like our parents, no matter what we do, we end up like literally just becoming them in another freaking body, because I feel like I similar, like I also like, am similar to my dad or in the same way as him, but he's more of like a people, person, like you know how you're like, I don't know how you're so social or how like you're so all over the place like that's my dad's thing, like he is like telling stories, making jokes, all the pizzazz, and like that's what I do, but girl them facts, I don't know about that yeah, but um, so we're we're pretty far into this conversation.

Sandy Paulino:

Yeah, and we got into it. We have veered a little bit yeah we got it, but I think we're going to be able to find a conclusion here. Okay, I just wanted some last remarks. You know, for the people, what is it that you want to leave them with? And to remind you, since we got off topic, we are talking about Afro-Latinidad. You know, off topic, we are talking about afro latinidad.

Jennylee Ramos:

you know, black latinidad, just being from our culture in this environment that we call america so, in terms of what to leave people with, I think, on that topic especially, the most important thing is educating yourself and going forward and doing the research and like learning from other people and having conversations like this to see that, even though we're all like Afro Latino and we're all Dominican American, we also have completely different perspectives even you two, who grew up in the same household completely different perspectives and I think that if we move forward and don't make assumptions about people and about their experience and their level of education based on what they look like, what they sound like, we would live in such a better world, but also like we would be no, seriously, but also we would be able to, I guess, like just embrace the beauty of it all and how awesome it is to be able to speak multiple languages, to be able to flex in different environments and be able to code, switch, to be able to speak different dialects and switch class sets and all that kind of stuff.

Jennylee Ramos:

Like that is awesome. And people think that it's a downfall. Yeah, people think that it's bad. People think that if they hear you speak in spanish, that you should not because you need to speak english, as we're in america, like, don't get mad at us, because we know multiple languages like.

Sandy Paulino:

You know what I mean.

Jennylee Ramos:

Like that's dope. And if you want to like, don't be upset. And if you want to learn, let's talk. And if you want to like, don't be upset. And if you want to learn, let's talk about it. If you want to learn, pick up a book. Like, pick up a class. So I think that if we start embracing the differences and stop trying to like box things, we would just be in such a better place. So that's definitely, I think, the most important like embracing and educating all of that.

Jennifer Paulino:

Yeah, I would say to that point too, is being open and willing to accept different perspectives, because sometimes we are, oh yeah, like I'm all for diversity, I'm all for these things, but when somebody tells you something that doesn't align with what you had in your mind, you instantly box them out or like cancel them that's a selective hearing, yeah yeah, like cancel culture is such a big thing that I it just does not sit well with me.

Jennifer Paulino:

I'm all for like if something doesn't sit well with you, you don't have to engage with it, but you also don't need to disrespect it. And I think there's a level of accountability that we all have to have for the hypocrisy that we all carry. We all have to be self aware. I think that's one of the biggest pieces is being self-aware, being willing to open and accept other perspectives, not necessarily agreeing with them we can agree to disagree but being open and willing to understand where somebody else is coming from, advocating for other people and advocating for yourself, and understanding that who you are is valuable, what you have to say and what you have to bring to the table is valuable. And understand that we might not all be sitting at the same table and that's okay, but we still eating, though Exactly, absolutely Like we don't all have to sit at the same table.

Jennifer Paulino:

Just like in school we had our individual desks but we all came for the same purpose and we all had our own individual way of learning. So if everybody is willing to accept that they're not going to align with everybody, there's an easier way to have a conversation where we're listening to each other and not trying to speak at each other. So I think a really big, important piece about diversity and just identity in general and having a conversation about identity and, to Jenny's point, educating yourself, is being willing to humble yourself and know that your perspective is not the only acceptable perspective, absolutely that's.

Sandy Paulino:

I don't know how to follow that up y'all. I mean there's a lot to take out of this, but for me I would just say know where you come from. You know, a lot of us are really good at forgetting our roots, and you know when it's convenient. Of course, and going back to our whole, you know anti-blackness in the Dominican culture. We have to understand where that comes from. You know, rafael Trujillo I made a video about this during the Black Lives Matter rallies, like during the heat of it, about limpiando la raza.

Sandy Paulino:

You know, la rubia, la morena y prieto, like that, like those are some strong words that we're not on. We don't really know the deepness behind what some of those meanings. So, yeah, you know just kind of before you get on your high and mighty chair, before you bring yourself down, because some of us, you know, forgetting where you come from can also mean, you know, forgetting that platform that you already have, forgetting that experience that is already have, forgetting that experience that is so valuable to what you bring to the table. So that goes both ways. Just kind of check yourself before you wreck yourself, you know.

Jennifer Paulino:

Put it in the words of Mufasa remember who you are.

Sandy Paulino:

All right, Well you know. Thank you for watching another episode of the Sandbar. I'm sure a lot of people are going to feel strongly about some of the things we said, so leave a comment.